A conversation about where SI meets the world we live in
Junlei: Thank you so much for bringing a semblance of order, direction, and thoughtful planning to Simple Interactions. Over the years, our effort has been supported by volunteers, each with their own full-time jobs. It makes a big difference to have your dedicated attention to the now and future of SI. Although, to be fair, you are also a full-time doctoral researcher finishing a dissertation and a full-time mom of two young children. Why add another big agenda to your plate when you don’t have to?
Emily: I’m incredibly grateful for the opportunity to keep building upon the work of SI. As you know, this is my dream job! And to me, all of these hats are really just one job. Or perhaps, it’s just one common purpose. Each of the things that I do - research, teaching, parenting, supporting SI practitioners - strengthens and informs the other. And it takes a village. I always say that my children are my greatest teachers. You’re up there too, Junlei. But I think I’ve learned more about human development in becoming a parent than through all my years of coursework (no offense, Harvard!). At the same time, studying social and emotional development, teaching our course and learning from our students’ questions and experiences, and having the privilege of getting to observe, learn from, and support developmental interactions between children and their helpers through SI, has absolutely made me a better parent; it’s made me a better researcher who asks more “real” questions; and it’s helped me see all the possibilities for what SI might be for others in this world.
Junlei: I also feel the connection between this professional work and the very personal encounters we have in the world. Each day, there’s no shortage of voices - or noises - that tell us about an increasingly disconnected world. We hear about loneliness as an epidemic in youth and adults. We feel trapped in divisive politics that break bonds between neighbors, friends, and even families. There are millions of children and families caught in war zones and pushed into man-made famine and public health crises. On the one hand, I value small interactions even more now because they remind me of our connections with other human beings. On the other hand, I hesitate to look only at small interactions because I don’t want to be an ostrich that sticks its head in the sand.
Emily: I will say that, at times, I have been tempted to bury my head in the sand. I’ve noticed recently, when I’ve been especially overwhelmed by anger or fear or anxiety about things going on in the world, that the joy I experience when interacting with my children feels somehow amplified. It’s almost equally overwhelming in its goodness. It’s this sense that this is so good, and so real, and so wonderful that I want to just create a protective bubble around us, never leave, and tune everything else out. Of course, even being able to entertain the possibility of that bubble is an absurd privilege. And, of course, it’s also not realistic to fully retreat from the world, nor would it be healthy for my children in the long run. But I think that it speaks to a tendency, especially in times of fear or uncertainty, to want to turn inward. It’s in these moments that we need to be able to hold the “both/and” - to fully feel and foster joy and soak up what is good, and to recognize that all of our wellbeing is interconnected and so we must also act and engage with the world as it is.
I think this speaks to the tension you are expressing as well - we need to be able to hold the both/and of simple interactions. Each of our lived realities is made up of a collection of day-to-day moments and interactions. These are incredibly powerful and real, and we have scientific evidence that they change not only our social, emotional, and cognitive development, but also our physical health and wellbeing. And those moments and interactions are enriched or diminished by the world around us. It might be easier, or feel better, to only focus on “feel good” small interactions and to ignore the big, systemic issues that plague our society. But, in order to “encourage, enrich, and empower the human relationships” in our world, we have to pay attention to the systems that either enable or diminish the development of healthy relationships and interactions too.
Junlei: Human interactions and relationships are “protective buffers” for children, especially in adversity. I think about all the helping professionals who taught us about how to be protective buffers in places like orphanages, residential youth care, and hospitals. I think about Fred Rogers’ saying, “Look for the helpers, and when you find the helpers, you will have hope.” I’ve been paying more attention to stories of real helpers both near and far. I hear about family support professionals who make deliveries to immigrant families who are too afraid to come to the resource centers. I hear about former USAID staffers who stay in war-torn Sudan, continuing to support people after devastating cuts in international aid. I want to add that, if we are able, we can help the helpers in addition to just looking to them for hope.
Emily: I couldn’t agree more. I know that for many helpers, whether they are caregivers or educators or healthcare workers or humanitarian workers or legal aid professionals or you name it, the burnout is real. The mental toll it takes to face the harshest realities of our world, without enough resources, recognition, or support, and to keep going each day is immense. Something I’ve seen through our Simple Interactions work is the importance of being part of a larger community of practice - of people who know and understand the realities of their work and can offer insight, advice, and affirmation. That’s something that I hope we can continue to build and foster - to make sure people know that they are not alone, but are part of a larger community of people who are collectively making a difference. Even if that difference might show up as something common, ordinary, or seemingly small and simple.
Junlei: I definitely think helpers are not alone in the world. What we learned over the entire course of Simple Interactions work is that there are helpers even in places with the least amount of resources and support, and there is always more than one person. I recently read about “mother trees” - the oldest tree among a cluster of trees in a corner of the woods, and how it connects with and helps to nourish the smaller trees (even those not the same species) around it. The helpers are like that. Every living thing, every aspect of the environment, impacts and is impacted by everything else. The tree that nourishes the tree next door nourishes me. The air that I breathe in and out is the same air that you breathe in and out.
Emily: It’s interesting that you talk about trees. In human development, we often talk about an “ecological approach,” or an ecosystem surrounding a developing person. And while that ecosystem is often depicted as concentric circles around an individual, we know that real-life ecosystems are a lot more like the forests you describe. We can’t just tend to one part of an ecosystem and ignore or harm another part, and expect us all to thrive. Our relational ecosystems are like this too. Right now, there is a sense that our global relational health is suffering, even as we’re finding and creating pockets of joy and connection and resilience. How might we reimagine all of society through the lens of a relational health ecosystem? In which it is all of our responsibility, in whatever role we play or job we do or interactions we have, to build systems that foster the relational health of everyone around us, in service of human development and human flourishing? How might we all see our role as that of a helper or a “helper of helpers”?
Junlei: That is the question for at least the next few years, isn’t it? Or decades! Whatever we can’t get done, I hope our children might. But there is no pretending that we can be well by hiding in whatever comfortable bubble our privileges temporarily afford us. We cannot deny the reality that our fate as human beings is connected within a country and around the world. We want to continue to support helpers and helping professionals, especially when it is difficult to keep helping. Every time someone stands up for human connection, they are doing something incredibly important, even if it is on the scale of one person, one interaction. Simple Interactions can also serve as a reminder and affirmation for that.
Emily: Especially right now, when we’re overwhelmed by news that makes us feel like we’ve forgotten how to interact in ways that honor our common humanity, our work at SI reminds me that in every corner of our country and around the world, in the most common, ordinary, day-to-day moments that don’t make the news, children and adults are both seeking and offering connection, reciprocity, inclusion, and opportunities to grow. And these interactions are the foundation for our sense of belonging and purpose - they are what give our day-to-day lives meaning. As you’ve said before, they’re just as real, if not, at times, more real, than what bombards us on the news. And to me, they are also the seeds of hope. The overwhelming presence of these ordinary moments of meaning points to the possibility for a movement in which we demand that our systems and institutions reflect the same principles that the best of our day-to-day interactions embody. I believe that is the work of SI moving forward - both/and, all of us, together.
Emily: I’m incredibly grateful for the opportunity to keep building upon the work of SI. As you know, this is my dream job! And to me, all of these hats are really just one job. Or perhaps, it’s just one common purpose. Each of the things that I do - research, teaching, parenting, supporting SI practitioners - strengthens and informs the other. And it takes a village. I always say that my children are my greatest teachers. You’re up there too, Junlei. But I think I’ve learned more about human development in becoming a parent than through all my years of coursework (no offense, Harvard!). At the same time, studying social and emotional development, teaching our course and learning from our students’ questions and experiences, and having the privilege of getting to observe, learn from, and support developmental interactions between children and their helpers through SI, has absolutely made me a better parent; it’s made me a better researcher who asks more “real” questions; and it’s helped me see all the possibilities for what SI might be for others in this world.
Junlei: I also feel the connection between this professional work and the very personal encounters we have in the world. Each day, there’s no shortage of voices - or noises - that tell us about an increasingly disconnected world. We hear about loneliness as an epidemic in youth and adults. We feel trapped in divisive politics that break bonds between neighbors, friends, and even families. There are millions of children and families caught in war zones and pushed into man-made famine and public health crises. On the one hand, I value small interactions even more now because they remind me of our connections with other human beings. On the other hand, I hesitate to look only at small interactions because I don’t want to be an ostrich that sticks its head in the sand.
Emily: I will say that, at times, I have been tempted to bury my head in the sand. I’ve noticed recently, when I’ve been especially overwhelmed by anger or fear or anxiety about things going on in the world, that the joy I experience when interacting with my children feels somehow amplified. It’s almost equally overwhelming in its goodness. It’s this sense that this is so good, and so real, and so wonderful that I want to just create a protective bubble around us, never leave, and tune everything else out. Of course, even being able to entertain the possibility of that bubble is an absurd privilege. And, of course, it’s also not realistic to fully retreat from the world, nor would it be healthy for my children in the long run. But I think that it speaks to a tendency, especially in times of fear or uncertainty, to want to turn inward. It’s in these moments that we need to be able to hold the “both/and” - to fully feel and foster joy and soak up what is good, and to recognize that all of our wellbeing is interconnected and so we must also act and engage with the world as it is.
I think this speaks to the tension you are expressing as well - we need to be able to hold the both/and of simple interactions. Each of our lived realities is made up of a collection of day-to-day moments and interactions. These are incredibly powerful and real, and we have scientific evidence that they change not only our social, emotional, and cognitive development, but also our physical health and wellbeing. And those moments and interactions are enriched or diminished by the world around us. It might be easier, or feel better, to only focus on “feel good” small interactions and to ignore the big, systemic issues that plague our society. But, in order to “encourage, enrich, and empower the human relationships” in our world, we have to pay attention to the systems that either enable or diminish the development of healthy relationships and interactions too.
Junlei: Human interactions and relationships are “protective buffers” for children, especially in adversity. I think about all the helping professionals who taught us about how to be protective buffers in places like orphanages, residential youth care, and hospitals. I think about Fred Rogers’ saying, “Look for the helpers, and when you find the helpers, you will have hope.” I’ve been paying more attention to stories of real helpers both near and far. I hear about family support professionals who make deliveries to immigrant families who are too afraid to come to the resource centers. I hear about former USAID staffers who stay in war-torn Sudan, continuing to support people after devastating cuts in international aid. I want to add that, if we are able, we can help the helpers in addition to just looking to them for hope.
Emily: I couldn’t agree more. I know that for many helpers, whether they are caregivers or educators or healthcare workers or humanitarian workers or legal aid professionals or you name it, the burnout is real. The mental toll it takes to face the harshest realities of our world, without enough resources, recognition, or support, and to keep going each day is immense. Something I’ve seen through our Simple Interactions work is the importance of being part of a larger community of practice - of people who know and understand the realities of their work and can offer insight, advice, and affirmation. That’s something that I hope we can continue to build and foster - to make sure people know that they are not alone, but are part of a larger community of people who are collectively making a difference. Even if that difference might show up as something common, ordinary, or seemingly small and simple.
Junlei: I definitely think helpers are not alone in the world. What we learned over the entire course of Simple Interactions work is that there are helpers even in places with the least amount of resources and support, and there is always more than one person. I recently read about “mother trees” - the oldest tree among a cluster of trees in a corner of the woods, and how it connects with and helps to nourish the smaller trees (even those not the same species) around it. The helpers are like that. Every living thing, every aspect of the environment, impacts and is impacted by everything else. The tree that nourishes the tree next door nourishes me. The air that I breathe in and out is the same air that you breathe in and out.
Emily: It’s interesting that you talk about trees. In human development, we often talk about an “ecological approach,” or an ecosystem surrounding a developing person. And while that ecosystem is often depicted as concentric circles around an individual, we know that real-life ecosystems are a lot more like the forests you describe. We can’t just tend to one part of an ecosystem and ignore or harm another part, and expect us all to thrive. Our relational ecosystems are like this too. Right now, there is a sense that our global relational health is suffering, even as we’re finding and creating pockets of joy and connection and resilience. How might we reimagine all of society through the lens of a relational health ecosystem? In which it is all of our responsibility, in whatever role we play or job we do or interactions we have, to build systems that foster the relational health of everyone around us, in service of human development and human flourishing? How might we all see our role as that of a helper or a “helper of helpers”?
Junlei: That is the question for at least the next few years, isn’t it? Or decades! Whatever we can’t get done, I hope our children might. But there is no pretending that we can be well by hiding in whatever comfortable bubble our privileges temporarily afford us. We cannot deny the reality that our fate as human beings is connected within a country and around the world. We want to continue to support helpers and helping professionals, especially when it is difficult to keep helping. Every time someone stands up for human connection, they are doing something incredibly important, even if it is on the scale of one person, one interaction. Simple Interactions can also serve as a reminder and affirmation for that.
Emily: Especially right now, when we’re overwhelmed by news that makes us feel like we’ve forgotten how to interact in ways that honor our common humanity, our work at SI reminds me that in every corner of our country and around the world, in the most common, ordinary, day-to-day moments that don’t make the news, children and adults are both seeking and offering connection, reciprocity, inclusion, and opportunities to grow. And these interactions are the foundation for our sense of belonging and purpose - they are what give our day-to-day lives meaning. As you’ve said before, they’re just as real, if not, at times, more real, than what bombards us on the news. And to me, they are also the seeds of hope. The overwhelming presence of these ordinary moments of meaning points to the possibility for a movement in which we demand that our systems and institutions reflect the same principles that the best of our day-to-day interactions embody. I believe that is the work of SI moving forward - both/and, all of us, together.
